“Brother David Steindl-Rast said, ‘The antidote to exhaustion isn’t necessarily rest. The antidote to exhaustion is wholeheartedness.’”

That quote has lingered in my mind ever since I interviewed Western Seminary professor Chuck DeGroat in January. Those same words took Chuck by surprise years earlier when he first heard them. The idea of true rest being associated with wholeheartedness, an integrated life, resonated with him. He eventually wrote about this integrated life in his book “Wholeheartedness: Busyness, Shame, and Healing the Divided Self.”

In his work as a pastor, counselor and seminary professor, Chuck has married insights from theology and psychology to think about shame and how it contributes to exhaustion. In our interview, he talked about how pastors experience shame and exhaustion in addition to how they can pursue wholeheartedness. Recently, Chuck has written a second book “When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse,” and I asked him a few questions on the relationship between narcissism and wholeheartedness.

You can watch some highlights from that interview here.